Hi All,

I'm new to posting here (lurker for many months but first time posting) so apologies if I am asking a question that has been asked many times before. But I want to ask it particularly in relation to my own situ.

I first noticed some thinning at the crown in 1991, when I was 23, after an unusually short haircut. At first I was horrified as I thought I'd be bald within a year or two, but as the months and then years went past it became clear my hair loss was very gradual. So gradual in fact that I lived with it for 17 years and just cut the sides shorter. But last summer I noticed things had got worse. My hair was eventually really thinning. Almost coinciding with my 40th birthday, I started my research and soon found that there were (potentially) better options out there than shaving it all off

Anyway I soon figured that the starting point was finasteride, and got some generic stuff from inhouse & united, which I started taking towards the end of August. Now I was aware of the potentially nasty documented side effects, which I have not experienced in any way, but somehow I had missed the fact that some guys had experienced shedding. Probably best that I missed that . Anyway for the first 2½ months I shed like crazy, which really freaked me out. My hair was still (just about) looking ok before this, but now it was becoming unacceptably thin. Fortunately I discovered nanogen and ended up growing my hair a fair bit longer. Interesting thing is, after doing this I have noticed an increase in female attention (some little over half my age) Anyway I digress.

Anyway I wasn't going down this road half-heartedly. I was already interested in 'the surgical option' and researched this too. Before very long the name Spex appeared, so I made some contact with him. And ended up meeting him in early October. Best thing I could do (thanks again for your time if you're reading this S). He advised me to stay on fin and not to plan to have an HT for at least a year. And to get some genuine proscar from Dr Ashcroft, which I did. I moved from generic fin to proscar in late October, after about 2 months on the generic fin.

Now the shedding stopped, I think, in November. I still see the odd hair in the sink, but overall my hair looks pretty much the same as it did 4 months ago, which wasn't the case in the 2 months before that. However (and here's my point) after 7 months I see no return of the shed hairs, let alone any other regrowth. My hair is pretty thin and I am completely dependent on nanogen, which isn't in my book a good thing. I'm also aware that I should expect a 6 month wait for a Ht with any of the best surgeons, so my initial thoughts about having it done at the end of 2009 would require a decision towards the end of May. That isn't too far away .
With my gradual hair loss I suppose it may take some time to confirm if the fin is working. How long should I give it? Has anyone else been waiting a long time and then still saw good results? I would really like for the fin to get my hair to an acceptable state and hence avoid the HT for all the obvious reasons. But I'm not getting any younger either and don't want to waste any more time than necessary!

Thanks for reading, sorry for the life story

Should mention I'm also taking 4 x 750mg MSM per day. Certainly makes nails & beard grow quicker, assume hair too.

Welcome GM,

I can not remember exactly who you are but feel free to call me anytime mate

Re this 7 months stage. IMO You are right in the middle of the tunnel and just need to continue through it. We all respond differently to meds and especially after a shed it can take time to recover but in my experience i would say just give it some time and stay with it - Stopping taking it now would not be a good idea IMO after the duration you have been on it as it would all be in vain.


If you plan a HT at the end of the year i would say there is no real need to get everything booked up till closer the time - many clinics will put a provisional date on hold for you to allow you to work towards something but you would not have to commit to it until 4 weeks prior(this is what happens at Feller medical) In that time you will know where you are with your propeica/shed situ.

The exact number of grafts can only be determined on the day. You would discuss in great detail your personal goal the AM of your session along with the med situ which by then you will have a much better idea on. Once the Doc can see you in person then the exact and most appropriate plan can be established off the back of your personal goal and the Docs experience as to the best way to go. HT is not an exact science and a great deal depends on what you bring to the table, ie donor supply, goal, loss pattern, hair characteristics etc.....on the day. All these factors are combined to give you the best result for you possible from your session.
Hope this helps mate!
Spex

Would it also be worth gm68 introducing the other 2 parts of the "big 3" regime often quoted here.., i.e. Minoxidil and Nizoral, to maximise re-growth opportunities..?

Hi Spex,

No probs, I realise that you meet a lot of people so no worries that you don't recall exactly who I am. I guess I'm feeling the need for whatever reason to retain a bit of anonymity on this forum - tried to PM you but it says I'm not allowed to use that facility . I met you on 8th October in the Jurys hotel Nottingham, suffice to say I had to take a cheap flight to get there . Not sure if that helps at all.....

Anyway I have no intention whatsoever of stopping fin. Sorry if I even slightly gave that impression, I certainly didn't mean to! I'm aware that some guys take 3-6 months to get results from fin, some possibly more than this, but with 7 under my belt now and little in the way of positive results (other than maintenance of the hair that didn't shed ) I'm wondering if I'm ever going to see any! I guess I'm firstly looking for some reassurance that there's still a good possibility of good results after all this time which is why I wanted to hear from someone else who took this long! And secondly wanted some guidance on the schedule for a possible future HT. If there is a good possibility of fin still giving me great results then I'm happy to delay this until 2010. Anyway the provisional date idea seems good. I was focusing on Dr F due to all the positive feedback and admittedly because NYC is easy for me to get to - after an HT the last thing I want is a 12 hour flight or worse still connecting flights.
Spex you sent my (poor quality) pics to Dr F and an initial rough estimate was 3500 grafts. I assumed this was to complete the job, I like this number since it could possibly be done in one session! Those pics were taken before I started fin.



In my meeting with spex he advised me not to bother with minox but to keep taking fin. Don't know much about nizoral.

Hopefully the fairly severe shedding I have experienced is a sign that the fin is doing its job. I'm pretty desperate to see some positive results right now though

Thanks
Gav.

Gav - penny dropped mate

Drop me an email - Email in signature

12 months is the usual timeline for results.

http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/propec...ect-results.jsp
http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/propec...on-propecia.jsp

Yeah I am aware that I should give it a full 12 months, it's just it seems most guys for whom this stuff works seem to have had at least something happening by the stage I'm at now.

I think the replies have been helpful so far. I'll see what happens over the next few months on the proscar.
Also I'm happier to delay a decision on a HT for a bit until I see what happens on the fin.

Do not be in ANY rush for a HT - give the meds chance to really work as its still early days. Great links to info provided by Pondle(as always)

Keep on with the meds and just be patient - keep us informed mate as you will most likely start to see "benefits" now upto 18 months IMO. Only at this point should you then should you consider other options as they may not be needed.

Give the meds the timescale they need.

Pondle

Sorry, should have said I read those pages (many months ago now) but it was useful to read them again - thanks for bringing them to my attention

There are a couple of things though:
1. The propecia pages don't mention shedding - surely some of the guys on the trial must have experienced shedding, based on the number of posters on the forums who have experienced it? Fairly sever shedding like I have experienced makes it difficult to know if my 'results' are in line with the timeline or not - when they talk about maintenance though, does that mean maintenance of the hair I *had* before starting propecia?
2. My hair loss has been so gradual that I think it would be very difficult to say if it has slowed down or stopped over a period of 6 months or even 12. I am almost certainly worse off now that I would have been if I hadn't started propecia (and certainly worse off than I was before I started taking it). But that's all due to shedding which hopefully will be a temporary issue (insert emoticon for 'prayer').


Spex

Thanks for your help as always

I'm convinced to persevere for a bit longer. I want to see where my situ will stabilise before going any further down the HT route.
If I remember I'll post back with any results.

Thanks
Gav.

Gav, not sure if you are aware or not, but this is the simplicity of it:

Finn/Dut: stops/slows hairloss
Minox: actually grows hairs

Ive been using minox on my front (im early twenties, prob got most hair on this board by far) and ive been regrowing my frontal line. It takes ages but ive managed to grow temple hair right back to a Brad Pitt hairline, but im just waiting to fill the small-receeded parts.

Thats how effective it is, but it does take a long time!

But some have also had regrowth on fin alone (forty something percent?). Some only maintained the existing hair. And some continued to lose hair.

Also, minox = more shedding (initially). Me & my situ can't take that right now. At least until the already shed hairs (hopefully) return They will, right? Right?

It may also worth trying Nizoral twice per week to add to your regime. Nizoral is a shampoo that contains 2% Ketoconazole.

One 1998 study showed that Nizoral 2% worked just as well as minoxidil 2% in men with androgenic alopecia. Both medicines increased hair thickness and increased the number of anagen-phase hair follicles on the scalp.

Other members of the forum know much more about the product and can advise.

Ian,

That's interesting, didn't know that. I'll look into that.

Just please tell me it doesn't cause <censored> shedding!!!!

just my 2 cents. Been on Proscar now for 13 months. I believe it has accelerated loss in the frontal third (Pushed Hair out that was probably on the way out anyhow). So my hair looks worse at the front than it did when i started.

I now need to disguise that part with nanogen where previosuly i didnt. I just hope its working as a retainer for the remainder of my hair. And i hope a procedure to support the front third will get me back on track in conjunction with the fin to keep the rest of my hair,

That's interesting Bob as my experience has been similar. A year ago I really only had bad loss in the crown. I kept my hair short, #1 for the sides and #4 on top, and that was working *ok* until then. After starting fin last August, I almost immediately started a severe shed which appears to have affected the frontal region most severely. So much so that nanogen became a necessity. Unfortunately now it is only just doing the business in the frontal region. And there is not enough hair in the crown for it to work properly at all.

I too hope that the fin is working but to date I have not seen any definite positive results (although the shedding stabilised towards the end of last year). I think my hair loss has been so gradual that it's impossible to say if fin is retaining the hair I have now, although I would have expected to see the shed hairs starting to return by now?
In work we have just moved to a new facility with open plan office and bright overhead lighting, which is only adding to my misery

I will report back in a couple of weeks since that will be 9 months on fin. It's also the point where I saw myself making a decision on whether to go for a HT in 2009. I will of course give the fin the time scale it needs but feel I need to think ahead and perhaps at least plan the next phase.

Are you going ahead with a procedure with Dr Feller then Bob?

G.

yes GM - i intend to have a procedure with Dr Feller - its looking like like early next year now due to various reasons. i would not have bothered with Fin if i wasnt going to have a procedure as ive been unsatisified with my hair now for a long time so if i wasnt going to have a procedure i would have just shaved it off and be done with it.

im considering at the moment shaving my head until i get the procedure done. ive had a skin head in the past and feel it suits..


what are your plans ??

Last year I made a conscious decision to go down the route of trying to do something about this (the alternative being cutting it all off - a day which was apparently getting uncomfortably close). This was never going to be a half-hearted effort and I have every intention of exploring all options necessary. Of course it would be good to avoid a HT for all the obvious reasons, but after 8½ months on fin it's still not really looking avoidable
During my meeting with spex last October it became clear that I wouldn't want to be having a HT for at least a year since this would be the time required to fully evaluate the fin. I'm still thinking about the end of 2009 as a possible date but if I could just see *any* positive results from the fin I may easily be persuaded to delay this. I'm also aware that I may have a 6 month wait for a HT with a reputable doc, meaning that a decision on any HT in 2009 may need to be made fairly soon
I've also been looking at Dr Feller.
Gav.

Iv been on FIN since September 2008. Not seen any results yet but i'll give it a full year before i consider anything else i suppose.

The thing is, if it would only stop anymore loss id be happy and would just carry on using nanogen for the rest of my life. If it doesnt at least halt the loss, im buggered. Im just, only just still getting away with it.

Split up with the missus some months so have been doing the dating game since. None of the girls iv seen have twigged i use aload of nanogen every day. How the hell am i going to approach a subject like that when things get serious

Tricky one no doubt mate - been there - But cross that bridge when you come to it

Give the meds a good year and remember their main role is to stop further loss

Sounds like your situ isn't too much different from mine Wayne.

But I'm not happy to continue using nanogen forever, at least not because I *have* to. I actually wouldn't mind using it regularly but I would want to be able to choose not to use it on occasions, which I can't do right now. I'm thinking of all the things I have to think twice about doing, anything involving being out in less than perfect weather conditions for a start. Holidays - my kids will want to go swimming with me, etc. It's too restrictive.

My wife knows I use bucket loads of it and has commented that my hair looks thicker (while it's actually thinner due to the fin-related shedding). She also knows I'm considering all options including a HT. She says she doesn't mind if I end up bald but deep down I know she loved the great head of hair I used to have, and I know she'll support me whatever way I decide to go with this.
Any woman worth her salt should be sympathetic to your situ, especially if you're trying to do something to improve it.

Well here's the 9 month update. No great surprises (un?)fortunately. My situ is pretty much the same as it's been for the last 5 months or so. That's good news if it means that the fin has stabilised things, bad news though that I'm still significantly worse off than when I started the fin, mostly (I believe) because of the fin.

So where to go from here? Well I'm in two minds. Part of me says give the meds the full 12 months before making any decisions, period. Another part says that it's now unlikely that the fin will provide an acceptable solution by itself and I will end up going down the HT route to some extent or another, and if I get my slot booked I could be well down the recovery route by this time next year (whereas delaying a decision will probably add a year to this).

For now the former part is winning.

I can't see how fin could have made things worse. Let's think about it logically: we know that DHT is a major factor in male pattern hair loss, and we know that fin blocks the formation of DHT. Therefore, taking fin will, at the very least, delay the balding process.

All the evidence shows that men who take fin are more likely to retain or regrow more hair than those on placebo. I just don't see how fin could cause more hair loss.

http://www.baldingblog.com/2008/11/06/my-d...cause-shedding/

But it's also known (although apparently not documented by the manufacturer) that fin *can* cause shedding. As far as I can see I'm certainly not the only one to have experienced it. All I can say is that for the first 2½-3 months on fin I had a severe shed, the like of which I have not previously experienced and which was completely uncharacteristic of my previously very gradual hair loss.

Now I realise that shedding isn't hair loss and that shed hairs should return. But what I'm reporting at 9 months is that those shed hairs have *not* yet returned and I'm wondering if they ever will (still hopeful )

In my book that leaves me worse off than before I started fin (at this moment in time). Although that could change (hopefully).

IMHO - you have come this far 9 months so i would recommend seeing this through for the full 12 months on the meds prior to making any decisions on which way to go next. Do you have any pre propecia pics and pics to compare to now?

We are our own worse critics and often the camera will help see where you actually were and where you are now. Shed hairs WILL return - trust me -i know its tough - i am in the back end of a back to back shed

Remember the KEY to meds is preventing further loss.

Ride this out for 3/4 more months - also TRY not scrutinize your hair as often the case is a watch kettle never boils ;-)

Great encouragement as always S

I've been taking pics every 3 months and the May '09 ones looks pretty much the same as the Feb '09 ones. The Nov '08 ones are not much different but the Aug '08 pics (pre-shed) show significantly more hair particularly in the frontal area. Back then I was buzzing down to #6 on top and (just about) getting away with *no* nanogen.

You seem very confident that my shed hair will return, let's hope you're right!!!! So the meds should prevent further loss based on the hair I had in Aug '08?

I'll ride it out for 3/4 months and see what happens.

Ta
Gav.

Priir to going down the HT route you could see if PRP can help also.

http://stophairlossnow.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4354

hi guys - good follow up as this is a good topic. Im in exactly the same boat, im now approaching 15 months on the fin and the difference in the frontal third is something from when i started.

As i say i believe it pushed hair out that would have been on the way out anyhow altho its done it lot quicker. The hair was prob not strong enough to come back. I dont really have a problem with this ONCE the fin hopefully is keeping the remainder of my hair. Ive no real thinning anywhere else so all i can hope is its doing its job as a retainer.

Its is a game of chess this hair restoration lark and you have to keep looking ahead to the end game i suppose. im getting away with the nanogen for now. Until i can start reversing the trend with a procedure next year. Followed by another one then down the line to hopefully achieve my long term goals.

But i think this is an important point for people who are considering jumping on Fin so they are aware they could potentially lose some hair that wont come back. Avoids any nasty shocks. Ive been so horrified with the way my hair has thinned (compared to my Dad and brothers with completely thick hair! ! )i knew drastic action was needed so no regrets getting on Fin. if it will help me achieve my long terms ill grin and bear the pain at the moment suppose...

Hey!!!
Spex said the shed hair WILL (note the caps!) return!
I am trying to be patient!!!

PRP sounds interesting but like one other poster I don't fancy having to have it done every 6 months. Even if it can be done in the UK I'd still have to travel since I'm not UK mainland.

Gav, when did you start taking the Proscar from Dr Ashcroft, as opposed to the stuff you bought off the net? I don't have a lot of faith in internet pharmacies, a World Health Organisation report a while back estimated that 50% of the drugs bought online without prescription are fake!

If you started shedding heavily while taking meds you bought online, and the loss appears permanent, well that could be a sign that the meds were fake and you were simply experiencing a period of accelerated "normal" loss. Acording to an article in the BMJ journal even without treatment the progression of male pattern baldness can fluctuate considerably, with periods of accelerated loss lasting 3­-6 months followed by quiescent periods lasting 6-­18 months.



Finasteride starts reducing DHT immediately, but because of the length of the hair cycle its effect on the number or thickness of hairs isn't usually felt for months - except in those cases, such as yours and Bobilero's, where a phase of 'shedding' is perceived. If this loss turns out to be permanent, it's possible that it was just related to a "lagging effect" from the accelerating hair cycle prior to treatment. Make sense?

It's interesting that you guys have a very different experience of finasteride than me. Personally I never experienced any 'shedding' from finasteride, in fact quite the reverse! Before starting the treatment I noticed that I was losing loads & loads of hair in the shower, on my pillow etc; within 2 months of swallowing my first Propecia tablet, that daily loss seemed to reduce quite considerably. That's how I could tell the stuff was working. We have to remember that there is a wide variation in response to finasteride, which appears to have a genetic component. One company has now introduced a test to predict whether you'll have a good, moderate or poor response to the drug - http://baumanmedical.typepad.com/follicleb...-hair-loss.html

I started the Dr Ashcroft proscar about 2 months in, 1.25mg per day. So I have now been on it for 7 months. Before that I bought generic fin (the Cipla and Dr Reddys variants) from inhouse and united, and alternated between them day by day. I think the main concern about fake drugs was the genuine propecia?
I have to say though that the scale and rate of shedding was something I had never experienced before



I've been wondering if my very gradual loss could indicate a slow hair cycle? In which case there may be hope yet!! Or does everyone's hair cycle have the same/similar duration?
Could this also be an indication of a slow recovery after any future HT?

Nope, any drug bought online without prescription is very likely to be a fake, regardless of the brand. I think it's quite possible that you've only been taking finasteride for 7 months, so you'll need another 5 to judge its effectiveness.

If after 12 months you can look back upon the point you started Dr Ashcroft's Proscar and see no change, then consider it a success.



Ordinarily male pattern hair loss means a progressive shortening of the anagen (growth) phase of the hair cycle, and a reduction in the ratio of anagen (growing) hairs to telogen (dormant, about to shed) hairs.

The progress of balding is extremely variable - some people can go completely bald in 5 years and others take 25 years.

I'm not so sure. Inhouse & United seemed to have a good reputation, I checked before ordering. But I did alternate just in case one or other order contained fake drugs. And then there is the shedding, whose severity, timing and duration would tend to indicate that something was having an effect.
But since I'm planning to give it another 3-4 months, I may as well make it 5
I've already had more shedding since starting the Dr Ashcroft proscar, although only for the first 1-2 months after that.


I think I was on course to take 25 years, or longer, until last year's shed kicked in anyway
Thanks
Gav.

Some sites have a better reputation than others on hairloss forums, but the bottom line is that Inhouse, United and all the rest are selling you "grey market" products of uncertain origin from a warehouse somewhere in the Third World. They aren't subject to any regulation or accountability; they don't even list a physical address!

You simply have no idea what's gone into the pills, and short of having them analysed, there's no way to be certain. Watchdogs in the developed world, such as the UK Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) advise patients not to buy medicines from the Internet. My girlfriend, who is a pharmacist, wouldn't touch these sites with a bargepole.



Well if it was treatment-induced, then the hair would have (or will eventually) return at its previous level of thickness and density. If it doesn't return, you would have 'lost' that hair anyway.

Either way, the amount of hair shed each day/week/month is a poor indicator of hair loss. Some people have a high rate of shedding but also a high rate of hair growth - they don't go bald. What matters is what's left on the scalp. See how you stand in a few months time.

Im sure loads of folks on the forum have the same issue here! One thing I would say (which my Dad said to me, when I was adamant I wanted a HT), is that women (or the ones worth knowing) don't actually care. In fact, I think most blokes dont care about anyones hair other than their own!
And if you think its tricky to explain nanogen - try explaining a Hair Transplant to your new woman! I waited until I was very sure about my future wife before I told her about that particular "elephant in the room"

I started taking generic fin from dr ashcroft at the start of the year, just after having a HT in the front 1/3. For the first couple of months I noticed a huge amount of shedding in the crown area which at 1 point even had me thinking about another HT but with time (6 months now) the hair is thickening back up again to what it was before. Suppose what I am saying is that some people do shed quite badly on meds but if it is down to the meds then you just have to hold your nerve and be patient. One of the best cases I have seen and probably the one that convinced me to start taking fin was a guy on here called Richie (hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example) He has had amazing results from meds and if you read his stuff he says you gotta give it a year

Seems like loads of us in the same situ with how to explain things to women. IE nanogen, what are those pills, and in my case at least, I met someone 2 months post HT and had to explain a fresh donor scar!!! I am just 32 and these are girls are in thier 20s that were talking about here but I have found being upfront about it from the start the best way to be. Women don't seem to care (anyone notice how common boob jobs are nowadays) and the most interest I have had is "ooh got any pics". I think as far as this goes we are all our own worst critics!!!

11 month update (9 months on Dr Ashcroft proscar): Little change. If anything, a slight worsening of my situ (thinning). Can't be sure though. I can feel some little short hairs in the crown area but those have been there for months and don't seem to be getting any longer! Still hanging in there with the help of nanogen.

Know what you mean about being our own worst critics. Virtually no one ever looks at my hair. It's me who frets about it.

Well incredibly it's been 12 months since I started fin (10 months on Dr Ashcroft proscar). I've taken pics at 3 month intervals and looking back, I see little or no change other than the shedding which affected me in the first 3 months or so. So maybe the fin is maintaining the hair that I now have...? Still unhappy about the shedding though.....
Anyway I know I need to give it the full 12 months on the Dr Ashcroft proscar which will be 2 months from now.

Maintaining what you have is the main role of Proscar/Propecia.

Yea i know but i had this strange idea that it may have maintained what i had at the time i started taking it, not inducing a severe shed (& i have yet to see any solid evidence of the shed hairs returning) & then maintaining what's left after that